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Defiant1
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Estimated Print Runs (23rd Dec 13 at 6:05am UTC)Quote Reply
I am going to post in this informal forum, what I believe to be the approximate print run totals for the titles...

Let me know what you think...This will not include some any one-shots or special issues...

Warriors Of Plasm
0 - 150,000 (Previews Edition) Note: This is the actual documened print run.
1 - 650,000
2 - 420,000
3 - 265,000
4 - 180,000
5 - 135,000
6 - 105,000
7 - 82,500
8 - 70,000
9 - 61,000
10 - 55,000
11 - 49,000
12 - 40,500
13 - 36,000

Dark Dominion
1 - 325,000
2 - 162,000
3 - 115,500
4 - 89,000
5 - 71,000
6 - 58,500
7 - 51,500
8 - 45,500
9 - 38,500
10 - 34,000

DEFIANT Genesis
1 (with card insert) - 10,000 Note: This is the actual documened print run.

Good Guys
1 - 202,500
2 - 121,500
3 - 85,500
4 - 63,500
5 - 53,000
6 - 46,000
7 - 41,000
8 - 35,000
9 - 30,500

War Dancer
1 - 118,500
2 - 70,000
3 - 55,000
4 - 50,000
5 - 42,000
6 - 35,000

Charlemagne
1 - 92,000
2 - 58,500
3 - 48,500
4 - 42,000
5 - 36,500

Dogs of War
1 - 70,000
2 - 47,000
3 - 37,500
4 - 30,500
5 - 25,000

Prudence & Caution
1 - 81,000
2 - 28,800


It becomes clear when looking at these numbers that Defiant was beginning to stabilize to a reader base of about 20,000 to 25,000 readers and not everyone was buying all the titles. The new title were showing only moderate initial sales with a quick drop-off.

20,000 - 30,000 print runs barely break even. They cost as much to make as the sales generate. Any sales less than that, especially for a company like Defiant that had an expensive and aggressive marketing campaign, it was clearly becoming evident that a negative cash flow was going to follow.

The investment capital ran out, and the positive cash flow was on the verge of running out.

Furthermore, if I project out for the next few months on what had been ordered, these are the "likely" sales totals (...had the issues actually been published)...

Dark Dominion
13 - 25,500
Good Guys
12 - 22,000
Charlemagne
8 - 25,000
Dogs of War
6 - 20,200
Prudence & Caution
5 - 24,500


While it is evident that rough times were ahead, it is discouraging that Defiant was not patient with the 20,000 strong fan base. These people were the readers that would be likely to give positive praise, just as Valiant's small fan base gave their early titles positive publicity.

Defiant 1

Added DEFIANT Genesis #1 (with card insert) to the list on 3/23/05

Added Plasm #0 (Previews Edition) to the list on 4/17/05
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (25th Jan 14 at 3:11am UTC)Quote Reply
Glad to see this information preserved here.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (25th Jan 14 at 4:30am UTC)Quote Reply
 
Glad to see this information preserved here.


I'll probably drag more over eventually.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (25th Jan 14 at 4:53am UTC)Quote Reply
At one time the end of the Defiant runs seemed to have fairly low print runs, but most publishers would love to have those print runs now.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (28th Jul 14 at 8:10pm UTC)Quote Reply
Isn't there two versions of the Defiant Genesis comic? One is the Philedelphia Comicfest '93 variant, and the other is the regular, I believe. Is this accurate? Which one has the card? Thanks.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (29th Jul 14 at 7:04am UTC)Quote Reply
 
Isn't there two versions of the Defiant Genesis comic? One is the Philedelphia Comicfest '93 variant, and the other is the regular, I believe. Is this accurate? Which one has the card? Thanks.



There are 3 versions.

1) Philadelphia Comic con banner version - the most common
2) Philadelphia Comic con banner version with card insert - "limited" to 10,000 copies
3) Regular (non-Comic con version) without banner - the least common.

I have no estimate on the other two. This being a promo comic, there was no published data on anything except the "limited" one with the card insert.

http://defiant.x10.bz/Genesis/Genesis.html

Defiant1

link updated 3/11/2017
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (29th Jul 14 at 2:47pm UTC)Quote Reply
Thanks a lot.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (2nd Sep 14 at 2:29am UTC)Quote Reply
Looks like it's estimated that Dogs of War 5 is the lowest print run issue of one of the ongoing titles, by over 10%.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (2nd Sep 14 at 2:59am UTC)Quote Reply
Yes, and it was also the last regular issue that was confirmed to exist when I created my checklist. I owned one copy, but I was unable to locate it. Steve Topper had to send me a scan.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (2nd Sep 14 at 8:59pm UTC)Quote Reply
That's the second Schism crossover too, isn't it?
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (3rd Sep 14 at 12:36am UTC)Quote Reply
It's tagged as a Schism book, but I think he was going to sit it out. Can't remember.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (3rd Sep 14 at 6:39pm UTC)Quote Reply
 
It's tagged as a Schism book, but I think he was going to sit it out. Can't remember.

Defiant1


I need to reread that. If it was tagged as a Schism book, it probably at least moved the Schism story along a little bit.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (3rd Sep 14 at 11:14pm UTC)Quote Reply
I didn't see him mentioned in the schism plot notes very much, but I wasn't really looking for references either.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (27th Dec 15 at 6:00am UTC)Quote Reply
I'm looking at the Diamond Top 300 list for June 1994. It's published in Diamond Dialogue magazine. I've taken the issue numbers on the list and reordered them based on their Diamond Ranking from highest to lowest. I've included the order index number which is based upon sales figures for Amazing Spiderman #392. My estimates were pulled from the top post in this thread. Essentially, Warriors of Plasm #11 sold 22.5% of what Amazing Spider-man #392 sold. The problem is that we don't know how many copies were sold of Amazing Spider-man #392. The interesting thing is that my estimates for Charlemagne and War Dancer are the same and so is the order index number. The only numbers that stand out as inconsistent are my estimates for the regular edition of Prudence & Caution #2 and Good Guys #8.

Warriors Of Plasm
11 - 49,000 / #216 on the Diamond Top 300 list / Order Index 22.5

Prudence & Caution
2 (Regular) - 28,800 / #226 on the Diamond Top 300 list / Order Index 20

Charlemagne
4 - 42,000 / #231 on the Diamond Top 300 list / Order Index 18.7

War Dancer
5 - 42,000 / #232 on the Diamond Top 300 list / Order Index 18.7

Dark Dominion
9 - 38,500 / #233 on the Diamond Top 300 list / Order Index 18

Good Guys
8 - 35,000 / #240 on the Diamond Top 300 list / Order Index 16.6

Dogs of War
3 - 37,500 / #242 on the Diamond Top 300 list / Order Index 16.1

Prudence & Caution
2 (Spanish) - No estimate / Greater than #300 on the Diamond Top 300 list / Less than 7.9

I really want just a ball park figure for how low the Spanish Prudence and Caution #2 might be.
Since there is some consistency with Charlemagne and War Dancer, I'm going to try and use those numbers to come up with an order quantity for Amazing Spider-man #392. If I have that, all the rest of the numbers can be calculated based on the order index number.

Based on my math, Amazing Spider-man # 392 sold approximately 224,559 copies

Using that as a reference, my estimates for the others would be:

Warriors Of Plasm
11 - 50,526
This is not a huge difference, only 1500 higher

Prudence & Caution
2 (Regular) - 44,912
This is a very huge difference, 16,100 higher that my previous estimates. Do my board members feel the P&C #2 is more common than Charlemagne #4 in the wild? I don't see it.

Charlemagne
4 - 42,000
Nothing to say, since I assumed this estimate was right to recalculate the others.

War Dancer
5 - 42,000
Nothing to say, since I assumed this estimate was right to recalculate the others.

Dark Dominion
9 - 40,421
This is not a huge difference, only 1900 higher

Good Guys
8 - 37,277
This is 2300 higher. I don't see this book very often, so I'm not sure how much 2300 copies would play in affecting that.

Dogs of War
3 - 36,154
This is 1350 or so less than my previous estimate. I think that's pretty close.

Prudence & Caution
2 (Spanish) - Less than 17,740
This is what I was trying to narrow down. Unfortunately, we don't know how low the order index number would have been. 17,000 is still a lot. I believe it to be MUCH lower. None of my math today factors Capital City orders. My previous math did.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (28th Dec 15 at 2:17pm UTC)Quote Reply
I think the later issues are getting harder to find. I like Broadway better.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (25th Apr 16 at 4:05pm UTC)Quote Reply
Defiant1- Did you officially revise any of your original print run estimates based on your new work?
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (26th Apr 16 at 12:10am UTC)Quote Reply
It looks like I did not since the numbers I reference in my last mathematical post are not reflected in the first post. I was mainly comparing the two estimates if I recall correctly. The initial estimates factored Capital City sales data. The later estimates were based on Diamond data only and there is some conflict in the results

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (26th Apr 16 at 12:23am UTC)Quote Reply
I wonder if you should average the two estimated and use those results in the top post.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (26th Apr 16 at 2:16am UTC)Quote Reply
Your question made me rethink what I was doing with the math. The first set of numbers are my actual estimates. The second set of numbers are taking the estimates and comparing the results to known ratios as ordered by Diamond only. There are some discrepancies when overlaying the known ratios, but most fall within a credible margin for error. I still deem the first set of numbers as being reasonable estimates.

My reason for exploring the numbers more closely was because I had ratios to possibly determine how few copies exist of the Spanish version of Prudence & Caution #2. The Spanish version of P&C #2 was printed in lower numbers than #300 on Diamond's list, but I have no way of knowing how low since it's off the list. At best I can say that I estimate the P&C #2 to have less than 17,740 copies. In reality, I believe the actual printed number of copies to be much lower. I was hoping to do the math and be able to say with reasonable confidence that there are less than 2,000 copies. Unfortunately, I can't do that. Since 17,740 is still a lot and it isn't low enough to stimulate collector interest, I just tossed out the math so people could ponder it by themselves.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (26th Apr 16 at 2:41am UTC)Quote Reply
At least we all know how thorough you've been on these estimates. {Cool}
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (26th Apr 16 at 2:52am UTC)Quote Reply
Yeah. For what that's worth. They is just funny books.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (13th Aug 16 at 8:26pm UTC)Quote Reply
The Warriors of Plasm Collected Edition might have a pretty low print run. Only two copies on eBay at the moment. That's much lower than almost any of the regular issues available there.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (14th Aug 16 at 1:06am UTC)Quote Reply
I don't think the print run is particularly high because people were stuck with the individual issues. I don't think it's as low as a DoW #5.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (14th Aug 16 at 1:53am UTC)Quote Reply
I wonder if it was released after the market had crashed...
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (14th Aug 16 at 2:01am UTC)Quote Reply
Dogs of War 5 seems extremely difficult to find in high grade. All of my copies are around FN. Same with mycomicshop's copies. I only see one or two on Ebay listed on NM and I wonder if they're accurately graded.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (14th Aug 16 at 2:59am UTC)Quote Reply
It was towards the end and the market was crashing as WoP went from 1 to 13. I'd guess it came out around the time of issue 9, but I'm not sure anymore.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (14th Aug 16 at 5:10pm UTC)Quote Reply
Plus with the higher cover price, the Warriors of Plasm Collected Edition could have a pretty low print run.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (14th Aug 16 at 7:00pm UTC)Quote Reply
Going by memory, I'd say it had pretty good saturation into the stores unlike the Fatale TPB that was ordered in very low quantities.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (21st Aug 16 at 11:11pm UTC)Quote Reply
Any idea on Prudence & Caution 1 and 2 print runs? Is issue 2 rarer than 1?
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (22nd Aug 16 at 1:26am UTC)Quote Reply
Definitely... by my estimates.

Approx. 81,000 exist of #1 and more like 28,000 of #2

I think the sales drop on this title was a big disappointment. Most titles showed the sales dropping slowly. Sales on this fell like a rock.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (22nd Aug 16 at 2:14am UTC)Quote Reply
I meant to ask about the Spanish editions of P&C 1 and 2. My bad. Any idea about those? Issue 2 Spanish edition seems much harder to find than 1.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (22nd Aug 16 at 2:24am UTC)Quote Reply
I think it's a safe bet that less #2's exist. No sales data or estimates since these are off the top 300 list.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (22nd Aug 16 at 2:30am UTC)Quote Reply
Thanks.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (13th Nov 16 at 3:11pm UTC)Quote Reply
Any chance of making this thread a sticky?
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (13th Nov 16 at 6:00pm UTC)Quote Reply
So let it be written, so let it be done. I thought it was a sticky. Old age has tainted my memory.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (13th Nov 16 at 9:16pm UTC)Quote Reply
Nice. I refer to this thread enough to where it's best for me if it's easy to find.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (21st Jun 17 at 11:36pm UTC)Quote Reply
I saw a post wherein CorvetteJim put the print run of Prudence and Caution #2 Spanish edition at 500-1,000.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (22nd Jun 17 at 12:13am UTC)Quote Reply
Any idea where he got the numbers?

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (22nd Jun 17 at 1:12am UTC)Quote Reply
No. I wonder if BrotherJ knows.
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Re: Estimated Print Runs (22nd Jun 17 at 2:03am UTC)Quote Reply
I doubt it. I think I've made guesses that low. He could have gotten the numbers from me.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (6th Jan 18 at 2:28am UTC)Quote Reply
Here is the Previews trading card where I got the print run of the Previews issue with Plasm #0 in it.

Front:
Image

Back:
Image

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (10th Mar 18 at 2:46am UTC)Quote Reply
Image

Here is some info from the February 4, 1994 issue of CBG. It is from a March 1994 Kingpen Comics insert in CBG# 1055.
Sorry for the large images. The font is small.
Image

The disclaimer from Kingpen Comics:
Image

Comments to follow.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (10th Mar 18 at 2:59am UTC)Quote Reply
Observations regarding the post above... T

Warriors of Plasm #6 is estimated to have sales of 90,000 and ranked 78 on the top 300 comics. Kingpen asserts concern at the rate sales are dropping.
Dark Dominion #4 is estimated to have sold 75,000 and ranked 97 on the top 300. Kingpen states that sales are "alarmingly low".
Good Guys #3 is estimated at 72,000 and ranked 103. Kingpen "can't believe" that sales are this low on a third issue.

They observe an 18% drop in sales from the previous month.



My Estimate w/ Capital City FactoredKingpen w/o Capital City Factored
Warriors of Plasm #6105,000 copies90,000 copies
Dark Dominion #489,000 copies 75,000 copies
Good Guys #385,500 copies72,000 copies


My numbers don't appear to be out of line with his.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (1st Jun 18 at 11:34pm UTC)Quote Reply
More estimates from Kingpen Comics.

Good Guys #1 - 192,000 - my estimate 202,500 close!
Warriors of Plasm #4 - 140,000 - my estimate 180,000
Dark Dominion #2 - 135,00 - my estimate... 162,000

All my numbers are higher, but Kingpen may not be factoring Capital City's order numbers.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (6th Aug 18 at 5:17pm UTC)Quote Reply
 
No. I wonder if BrotherJ knows.


over a year later, but I saw this now. No idea on the print run number for P&C #2 Spanish, but it has to be small. That being said, it might not be as rare as it seems, as there could be copies floating around out there that no one has ever bothered to crack open and see if it is indeed the Spanish version, since you can't tell from the cover.

Was looking at this thread because I once again found a copy of Defiant Genesis with the Comicfest logo in the original Defiant logo sleeve and for some reason I can't pass on them when I see the sleeve intact. The version with the card supposedly has a 10,000 print run. The non-card version seems like it's about 10 times more common, I find them all the time out here in the Philly area since that is where they were originally distributed. Have yet to find one with the card insert "in the wild".


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Re: Estimated Print Runs (6th Aug 18 at 9:11pm UTC)Quote Reply
I assume Starbrand took up home at his Facebook group. I'm not going to join the group, but I would read the posts if he opened it up to the general public. I see no evidence that he even visits here anymore. Corvette Jim was dropped as a friend during a Facebook friend purge that I did. He'd already sold his DEFIANT collection and I decided I wanted a smaller footprint online. I dropped Todd Luck also. Jim may have taken offense to me dropping him, but I don't even add my sisters on Facebook. It is nothing personal at all. I'm not into connecting with people online. I was enlisted to help my mom delete her Facebook page after my sister set one up for her.

Starbrand left here right after getting Corvette Jim to join. I purge inactive accounts, so I'm really tempted to drop the membership down to about 5 members here. I'm holding off because I know Starbrand wanders off for years at a time and then resurfaces when I least expect it.

I would buy DEFIANT Genesis without the Comicfest banner if I saw them. I'm not even sure If I own one. If I do, it's because it was a gift. I think I was given one with the card insert, but it might be the other way around.

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Re: Estimated Print Runs (6th Aug 18 at 10:05pm UTC)Quote Reply
 
I assume Starbrand took up home at his Facebook group. I'm not going to join the group, but I would read the posts if he opened it up to the general public. I see no evidence that he even visits here anymore. Corvette Jim was dropped as a friend during a Facebook friend purge that I did. He'd already sold his DEFIANT collection and I decided I wanted a smaller footprint online. I dropped Todd Luck also. Jim may have taken offense to me dropping him, but I don't even add my sisters on Facebook. It is nothing personal at all. I'm not into connecting with people online. I was enlisted to help my mom delete her Facebook page after my sister set one up for her.

Starbrand left here right after getting Corvette Jim to join. I purge inactive accounts, so I'm really tempted to drop the membership down to about 5 members here. I'm holding off because I know Starbrand wanders off for years at a time and then resurfaces when I least expect it.

I would buy DEFIANT Genesis without the Comicfest banner if I saw them. I'm not even sure If I own one. If I do, it's because it was a gift. I think I was given one with the card insert, but it might be the other way around.

Defiant1


I figured Starbrand wasn't waiting with bated breath for me to answer him, I was just amused that I was mentioned in this thread and never noticed!

As far as his Defiant FB group, I'm a member, but I have notifcations turned off and I also don't see the posts in my feed very much, if at all. Maybe because it's a smaller group, I don't believe I "unfollowed" the page. Looking at their page, it looks like JC Vaughn posts there more than anyone, advertising non-Defiant work.

I'm not very active here, but every once in a while, I'll acquire something that we've talked about on here and I like to come back and talk about it.

I think the only place I've ever seen the Defiant Genesis without the Comicfest banner is on Mile High's site, that's where I bought mine. I think the version with the cards I picked up off eBay.



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Re: Estimated Print Runs (6th Aug 18 at 11:28pm UTC)Quote Reply
 


I figured Starbrand wasn't waiting with bated breath for me to answer him, I was just amused that I was mentioned in this thread and never noticed!

As far as his Defiant FB group, I'm a member, but I have notifcations turned off and I also don't see the posts in my feed very much, if at all. Maybe because it's a smaller group, I don't believe I "unfollowed" the page. Looking at their page, it looks like JC Vaughn posts there more than anyone, advertising non-Defiant work.

I'm not very active here, but every once in a while, I'll acquire something that we've talked about on here and I like to come back and talk about it.

I think the only place I've ever seen the Defiant Genesis without the Comicfest banner is on Mile High's site, that's where I bought mine. I think the version with the cards I picked up off eBay.


It's pretty dead around here. That's probably a good thing for me considering how many other things are going on in my life.

I think I looked at a post count on the Facebook Group and the post count was low. There's another Defiant group and it seem to have a low number of posts also.

I think the number of people wanting Defiant Comics will start to drop off dramatically.

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